and what is skill in poker?
Another fact is that human beings cheat whenver they have the chance. Are you gullible enough to believe that online poker is 100% clean?
And you may say:"poker sites run such a lucrative business, they wouldn麓t risk it with cheating" ever heard of the word GREED?isn麓t paying a bunch of nerds to sit in a room filled with computers 12 hours a day, playing on the site, teaming up and making sure most suckers and gambling addcits money stay in the house,... i mean, isn麓t this a way of cheating? against the average joe who has a gambling problem and is playing in a table with 3 kids who get payed to team against him and take his money.
anyway IF OR WHEN THERE IS NO CHEATING INVOLVED poker is a game of luck and the only thing you can control in each hand is how much money you will risk losing.
second time i ask this adn below are some answers i got. i find the poker people hilarious saying they have skills as if they played chess, golf, chequers, darts or something like that.
pleease MAKE ME LAUGH! the way the ones below did.
@"Have you ever seen a hand not reach showdown? Like someone bets, and someone raises, and the other people fold, and someone wins a hand and you never see their cards?
Did they win the hand based on luck? Of course not, they made a bet and got people to fold. That's skill."
-no that麓s not skill. they either bet because they had something or because they bluffed. if they had something they were lucky. and if they bluffed and others folded they were lucky nobody had something.
@"You ever see a hand where the river puts out the 3rd heart, and someone bets, and someone else just calls with one pair because he thinks the other person was bluffing? And he was right and wins the hand? Is that luck? Of course not, he made a good read and won the hand."
-----such reads don麓t exixt in online poker. he didn麓t make a good read. he made a BET and he was lucky the other guy was bluffing because there was no way for him to know. what read? "oh i think he doesnt have the flush and since he is not asking too many chips i will call him. if i'm right and he is bluffing i麓m great, but if the dude has a flush i麓m still great but he is a lucky bastard" that麓s the way they think.
@" tourney hands live are nowhere near as fast as online, because you are still waiting for a dealer to shuffle and deal cards."
online speed also varies a bit from site to site.
anyway, if you go see live poker you will notice how fast certain dealers are, and how many hands are quickly folded to the big blind.
@"Human being cheat? Wow... what a concept. And they only cheat on line, right? No one has ever heard of people cheating in poker in real life, right? Before the advent of computers, poker was the cleanest game you could ever play, because no one ever cheated... right?"
-live pro poker players were all cheaters because it麓s impossible to make a living from poker without cheating. they cheated and that麓s why they had to go from town to town. some knew how to deal from the bottom, they pretended they didn麓t know eachother and exchanged information through pre defined tells. yes they cheated because if you play poker without cheating there is no way you can win consistently enough.
there are still some people able to cheat live but most cheaters are now paid by sites to play there and some own sites. poker sites are the modern age cheaters and sharks.
@"Hopefully I've won some of your cash over the years"
- are you paid to write that? typical non sense
@" Bluffing is a poker skill. Raising, when you think your opponent is weak, is a poker skill. Re-raising, because you think your opponent is only raising because he thinks you are weak (even if you are) is a poker skill. If you can't comprehend that, then I suggest you don't play. Just assume that Phil Helmuth and Phil Ivey and others are just the luckiest people on the planet, they've got no skills at all."
-bluffing is skill?online you never know what your opponent has. if you re raise all in preflop with 72 and the guy holding JJ folds you are bluffing but that is no rocket science. any idiot can do that. any idiot can THINK or FEEL weakness and be wrong or right. bluffing is making a bet that the other guy either has nothing or will fold and there is no way you can feel him on the internet.
reraising is skill because he thinks that you think that he is bluffing and maybe you are bla blah blah...COME ON!!! lol i pick a number from 1 to 3, you think i picked number 2, and you are right. well acording to poker people guessing right in this type of situation is a skill. isnt that wonderfull?
@" If you can't comprehend that, then I suggest you don't play. Just assume that Phil Helmuth and Phil I|||Not when I play!|||"not when anybody plays unless there is some retard at the table."
There you go proving once again that there is skill in poker. There is ALWAYS a retard at the table!
You know what they say? If you can't spot the retard on the poker table, you ARE the retard at the poker table!
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|||lol did someone actually read all this??
if you cant beat the game it does not mean that everyone else is just luckier than you. take some time to learn and you will see how much skill is involved.|||Already been explained. Of course, you can't comprehend.|||Honest to God it would just take way too long to point out all the flaws in your thinking. You obviously have it in your head that the only reason anyone out there can make money playing poker is by cheating.
I'm only going to give you one example of how skill is used. Feel free to use it in your next rant against the folks here that actually know what they鈥檙e talking about. I'd be proud to have my example listed with some of the examples you used above.
The greatest skill a good poker player has is PAYING ATTENTION to what's happening. A good player pays attention to the chip stack sizes - his own and his opponents. (If you don't understand why, you don't understand winning poker - read a book!) A good player pays attention to the size of the pot in relation to these stack sizes, and also in relation to the bets that are placed throughout the hand. (If you don't understand why, you don't understand winning poker - read a book!) A good player pays VERY close attention to his opponents' betting patterns. I'll give you one concrete example and if you still don't understand why this is important and why this is a skill, then you don't understand winning poker - read a book!
Example of paying attention to your opponents' betting patterns: One particular opponent has been raising pre-flop on a high number of hands. He has been pushing the table around a lot. Any time he is called pre-flop he ALWAYS has followed up with a continuation bet. Most of the time that he's raised, he folds. This particular hand he raised pre-flop and you have K-Q suited and decide to call him from the button. One other player called ahead of him, and one other player called his raise behind him, so you think it best not to re-raise. The flop comes K-7-2 with all mixed suits. The first player checks to the pre-flop raiser. The raiser makes a fairly standard continuation bet of about 1/3 of the pot. The next player calls. You decide to raise him with your K-Q. You raise an amount equal to the current pot which is about 4 times his original bet post-flop. (This is the one thing that may be considered a mistake on our part. Since one person has already called the continuation bet, it's probably a better move to just call here, but we decide to raise this time.) The pot is now the size of about 1/4th of your entire stack, and about 1/4th of his entire stack. The player that called first before the pre-flop raise now folds. The player that raised pre-flop re-raises you an amount equal to about 1/3 of your remaining stack. The next player who called the continuation bet calls! He is calling not only your raise, but the re-raise of the original bettor! What do you do?
This example doesn't take a huge amount of skill to see what you should do. Anyone with even a small amount of experience would realize what's going on here. The pre-flop raiser has almost certainly got a fairly big hand - MINIMUM Ace-King, possibly pocket Aces. The person who called the raise/re-raise has probably got either Ace-King, or a set of 7's. Even a person with a little skill would see that you should fold in this situation.
Even if the person in between you and the original raiser had FOLDED, your best move would still have been to fold. You've been paying attention to his betting patterns, and he is NOT a player that will re-raise without a big hand. No matter what, a good poker player is going to fold given all the information he gathered by PAYING ATTENTION.
**************
This was a very simple example. Very clear cut as far as seeing the skill it took to read the situation properly. A POOR poker player would have called with his K-Q because he had the BEST pair on the board! Those are the players that are going to whine and complain that poker is rigged.
One more final point - EVERY BIT of this example could have played out in a live casino or in an on-line game. You did NOT need to "read" the player or look for a "tell" to understand what to do in this scenario. Players that aren't paying attention to details such as pot size, stack size, bet size, and players' betting patterns are poor players. They are relying 100% on luck and have little if any skill.
***EDIT***
What a waste of time. This is like talking to a termite.
"Best Answer" should go to LegFuJohnson since he's the only one who didn't waste much time on this nonsense.
***EDIT #2***
I don't know why I'm even bothering to add more here. It's clear that you have made up your mind and will not see anyone else's point of view. The only reason I'm adding this is because it just happened last night, and it is an excellent example of skill in poker.
Situation: I had around $600 sitting in front of me. The other significant person (let's call him "Fred") in the hand had about $400. $1/$2 no-limit game. I have watched Fred play for 2 hours and he is a solid and competent player. Fred is first to act at a full table with 10 players and he raises to $11. That is a very strong move being first. (You would only know that as a skilled player, but that's beside the point.) He has 1 caller before it reaches me 3 seats away from the button. I look down at pocket Aces. As a skilled player, I know that I don't want to be in a hand with a bunch of people when I have pocket Aces. I'd like to be heads up with 1 guy, or maybe have 2 callers at most. I raise it to $24.
This turned out to be a mistake, because I ended up with 4 callers, including Fred. That is also beside the point. $24 dollars was reasonable, but I underestimated how loose people were playing. The most important part comes on the flop.
The flop is Q-J-6 with 2 diamonds. It's checked around to me. What do I do with my pocket Aces???
The answer to that question is going to be different between your skilled players and your unskilled players. As a skilled player I know there are 2 possibilties - either I'm still ahead in this hand, or someone hit a set or 2-pair on the flop. I chose to find out which. Into a pot of $120 (after 5 people put in $24 each), I bet $100 with my Aces. Unless you are a total amature, you are not going to call with a diamond draw. Everyone folds around to Fred. Fred pushes "All-in" with the rest of his stack. It's $376, so it's $276 more to me to call.
WHAT DO I DO???
Again - the answer to this question will be the difference between a skilled and unskilled player.
He raised pre-flop when first to act. A very strong move. He got re-raised and just called. He has played fairly tight thus far. He saw me make a VERY big almost pot-sized bet in a $1/$2 game. He didn't think very long about this decision - he moved all in for close to 400 dollars.
An unskilled player just thinks about his pocket Aces and is very unlikely to lay them down. A skilled player knows that there are only about 3 possibilities here.
#1 and most likely - he has a set of Jacks or maybe Queens.
#2 and very unlikely - he has Ace-Queen which means I have him beat. Unless he is retarded he is not going to think I will bet $100 into this pot without having top pair crushed.
#3 and also very unlikely - he has pocket Kings which I have beat. Very unlikely he is going to allow 2 callers to his left for $24 come in that cheap when he has pocket Kings. He will almost certainly re-raise in this situation pre-flop. (Same thing in the extremely remote chance he also had pocket Aces. He would have re-raised for sure pre-flop.)
I had to call $276 more to get a pot that now had $600 in it. If I had him beat 1 out of every 2 times I were in this situation, then I should make the call. It would be worth it. I knew that it is probabaly 9 out of 10 times that he would only make this move with pocket Jacks or pocket Queens. (He would also have done this with pocket 6's and Queen-Jack, but I know he wouldn't have raised pre-flop with those hands being first to act.)
I showed him the Aces, and I folded. He showed me pocket Jacks.
As a skilled player I saved myself $276. It cost me $124 to have my pocket Aces beaten by pocket Jacks. An unskilled player would have lost $400.
I so look forward to the BS reason you'll surely give as to why this wasn't skill.
***EDIT 3***
You are analyzing the hand in a thinking manner and that is EXACTLY what you're supposed to be doing! I don't agree completely with all of your analysis, but that is entirely besides the point. My whole point is that you can deduce certain things from the chip sizes, the actions, the prior betting patterns, and the cards you're seeing. OF COURSE he got lucky by hitting the set of Jacks! Nobody denies the luck factor of poker. It is what you do with your lucky cards, and what you do with your unlucky cards, (like my pocket A's in this case), that separates skilled players from unskilled players.
2 years ago there isn't any way I would have layed the Aces down in that situation. I've learned. I've improved my game. I am NOT any luckier than I was 2 years ago! I have studied the game. I have read some books. I have learned to think beyond the luck elements of the game and focus more on building my skill of reading the hands based on the situation.
Bottom line, 2 years ago I would win some and lose some and over all was a LOSING player. Now, and I'll repeat the most important part, I am NOT ANY LUCKIER, but I WIN more than I lose. Why is that? I know why, but you can't accept the fact that I am more skilled than my average opponent.
***EDIT 4***
They won't let me type more. Long story short, in many ways you're proving there is skill in poker. E-mail me to continue the conversation.|||If there is any kind of skill in poker, I would say it's about 10%. The other 90% is luck.|||Wow ok, I have so much to say on this topic. I've played poker for 4 years, live and online and I can tell you with 100% certainty that poker is definitely not just luck. All it really takes to realise this is to study players statistics. If poker was 100% luck then you would expect it to even up over time, and players would win roughly the same number of games, come in the top 8 or top 16 roughly the same number of times, and I promise you this does not happen.
There is of course a luck element. You might be able to put your opponent on a good hand, but almost always you can only take an educated guess as to how good it is. For example if there's a pair on the board and you've hit a full house, and you're playing against an unknown opponent, and you can tell he thinks he has a good hand, but how do you know what your opponent thinks is a good hand? He could have trips or he could have quads. You can only use what information you have gleaned in the past to make an educated guess. You might put him 95% of the time on trips, 5% on quads. In which case you are relying on a little luck that this time he will have trips.
This is one example of thousands I could have used to demonstrate my point.
The next thing to understand is that ANY skill element in a game means that over time the skill element will seperate people because the luck will even out. Games such as Snooker, Tennis, Bridge, etc all have luck and skill elements, but you wouldn't rule them out as merely luck games simply because they have a luck element would you? That's because there is a significant skill element which seperates the good players from the bad. Even if poker has 5% skill element (I personally believe it has more) then the 95% luck would even out if you play long enough, and the good players will win more of the 5% skill situations than bad players.
With regards to cheating, I can assure you I've been in situations where it would be impossible to cheat, and the good players always shine through.
To say this 'IF OR WHEN THERE IS NO CHEATING INVOLVED poker is a game of luck and the only thing you can control in each hand is how much money you will risk losing.' shows a basic lack of understanding about the odds of winning. Even right at the start with only two cards in your hand you can estimate roughly what your odds of winning are. If you play every hand, including 6-2, 7-2 etc, you will lose a far greater percentage of hands than someone who sits back and waits for A10 or better to play.
Being able to guage what your odds of winning are, with your particular hand, with your particular position at the table, against the particular players you are playing with, and knowing how they will react to your bets based on your past knowledge of how they have played earlier hands. THAT is the definition of the skill in poker. Yes you will lose sometimes. But good players come out with more wins on average than bad players, and if poker was all luck, this wouldn't happen.|||It is a combination of Luck, Skill, and Intuition. Professional poker players don't get to be professional pokers players because they are just lucky. If you play poker, and you loose all the time, then that means that you do not have enough wisdom, experience and skill to play your cards right. If you want any kind of chance for your money then you need to practice. This will give you experience. Through this experience you will gain wisdom. Through this wisdom you will hone your skills. It is not all based on luck. Nobody is that lucky all the time.|||Why bother posting a question if you already have your mind made up. Several folks have already given you good answers and all you do is rant and rave. This is a site to ask questions, not start a debate.
Poker is a combination of luck and skill, about 90% skill and 10% luck. If you don't want to listen to the facts then just stay away from the game unless you enjoy losing money.|||While luck is a factor in poker, I think that it is more about skill and strategy. You do have to know when to raise, bluff, etc. It also takes skill to maintain your poker face. If someone does not have this skill, they will be a terrible poker player. Not to mention being aware of your opponent. You should know their tell. I think I said that right haha, anyway. :)|||So then keep it a secret! I could use a steady supply of new fish! Fish are good for the economy, hehe
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